A collecting forum. CollectingBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » CollectingBanter forum » Collecting newsgroups » Pens & Pencils
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Namiki Falcon



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 26th 07, 03:24 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
yland45[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Namiki Falcon

On Mar 26, 10:30 am, Barutan Seijin wrote:
Am 24 Mar 2007, BL schrieb:

Barutan Seijin wrote:
It's not that hard. One only applies pressure on
the downstrokes. That's the only way it would work
anyway, so in effect, one does what comes
naturally. To an FP user, that is.


Are you saying Spencerian and Copperplate aren't that hard to learn?


They weren't for me.

I will agree that it's harder & more time consuming to write in such a
hand.

--


come on, it's keeping the lines at uniform widths at different stages
of the stroke throughout the writing. To master such a skill takes
yonks.

--
Because things just arent that easy

Ads
  #12  
Old March 26th 07, 07:12 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
Brian Ketterling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 250
Default Namiki Falcon

In oups.com,
yland45 wrote:

On Mar 26, 10:30 am, Barutan Seijin wrote:
Am 24 Mar 2007, BL schrieb:

Are you saying Spencerian and Copperplate aren't that hard to learn?


They weren't for me.

I will agree that it's harder & more time consuming to write in such a
hand.


come on, it's keeping the lines at uniform widths at different stages
of the stroke throughout the writing. To master such a skill takes
yonks.


The hardest part of Copperplate, for me, is keeping the micro-jitters from
my hand out of the thinnest lines. The modulated strokes are easier in that
respect, because of the steadying effect of the pressure on the point.

Brian
--


  #13  
Old March 27th 07, 09:10 PM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
Moira Perkins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default Namiki Falcon//More on flex

"BL" wrote in message
news:JycNh.1821$yo3.1198@trnddc04...
Here is a link to Anna's excellent article. Anyone interested in what flex
nibs can and can't do for your writing should read this:

http://www.paperpenalia.com/flex2.html

(Read her Joy of Flex 1 too --- you can navigate to other articles on her
page using the link above).


Hi BL,
Thanks for the articles!

(My news account stopped working over the weekend - I think it's recovered
now).

--
Moira


  #14  
Old April 5th 07, 03:25 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
Aaron Hsu[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Namiki Falcon//More on flex

On 2007-03-24 16:35:03 GMT, "BL" said:

Barutan Seijin wrote:

It's not that hard. One only applies pressure on
the downstrokes. That's the only way it would work
anyway, so in effect, one does what comes
naturally. To an FP user, that is.


Are you saying Spencerian and Copperplate aren't that hard to learn?
If so, I'll have to disagree with you. Anyone with a light touch can
write with a flexible- nibbed fountain pen. However, being able to
write with a flexible-nibbed fountain pen and actually producing
beautiful writing with one are two entirely different things. Anna
Lawson wrote a nice explanation of this on her web site, but I can't
remember the URL.



On 2007-03-24 11:43:21 -0500, "BL" said:

Here is a link to Anna's excellent article. Anyone interested in what
flex nibs can and can't do for your writing should read this:

http://www.paperpenalia.com/flex2.html


Quoting from this link, I think she says it best when she remarks,

It’s not so much difficult as it is exacting, and it requires great
attention to the tiniest details we’re not accustomed to worrying about.

I would have to agree with this statement. I don't think the concepts
or any of the mechanics of Spencerian (she was speaking in reference to
copperplate, but I have more experience in Spencerian) are particularly
difficult or trying. In fact, I would say it is a very simple and
straightforward form of writing. I encounter two problems, however,
when people attempt to learn this style of writing. First, that they
lack the proper motor skills, experience, and pen grip to achieve the
shapes of the writing, and two, they simply don't have an eye for the
details.

The former is MUCH easier to solve, IMO. I discovered some scanned
copies of old Spencerian manuscripts somewhere on the web, and they
were instrumental in helping me achieve a somewhat tolerable style of
writing. I am still far from perfect in my normal writing speed, since
I have not spent enough time developing those motor skills, but I
receive constant complements from uninformed people as to the better
appearance of my handwriting. The manuscripts I read gave some simple
exercises and forms to practice which make learning Spencerian much
easier, since, like any other exercise routine, isolating the muscle
groups and techniques for particular pieces of the letters was not a
really intuitive thing for me to do. Once I was even partially adept at
this, I noticed immediate improvements in my style. After that, it's
just learning to pay attention to those details and not get ahead of
yourself.

One thing the manuscript mentions which is also rather insightful is
that one ought to write as fast as on can while still maintaining the
shapes and forms of the letters. I notice that hitting that right
balance of speed and precision greatly enhances the consistency, and
consequently, beauty of the writing. At least for me, I sometimes have
to speed up to make my writing look better, rathre than slow down.

I have yet to take the time to purchase a good really truly flexible
nib to try out the more sophisticated aspects of Spencerian, but even
with today's modern, stiff nibs, the Spencerian forms look wonderful. I
also might add that Spencerian was not originally designed, as I
understand it, to be a calligraphic writing style. I believe it was
created as a business style of writing to be taught in schools. If a
bunch of young kids could learn to write decently (though not
perfectly) in this form, surely some disciplined adults can benefit
from some practice along these lines.

[If I have misrepresented any facts in this post, please correct me.]

- Aaron Hsu
--


  #15  
Old April 5th 07, 03:25 PM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
BL
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 190
Default Namiki Falcon//More on flex

Aaron Hsu wrote:

.... If a bunch of young kids could learn to
write decently (though not perfectly) in this
form, surely some disciplined adults can benefit
from some practice along these lines.


Hi Aaron... Here's how Anna opens her piece:

"Chances are, if you've purchased a flexible-nibbed pen with the
expectation that it would make your handwriting look fantastic, you
were disappointed. Popular belief seems to be that merely using a
flexible nib ... will automatically confer beauty on your handwriting.
Unfortunately, it's not so. This is what I not-so-fondly call the
flexible-nib myth." Later she writes, "Sorry to bring the bad news,
but truly beautiful handwriting comes from disciplined practice and
the application of specific skills."

The main purpose of my post on the subject (which you quoted) was to
point out that writing in Spencerian or Copperplate script does not
come naturally from writing with a flexible-nibbed fountain pen. You
will discover this too when you buy your first flexible-nibbed
fountain pen. I'm not saying that you won't find your writing pleasing
to the eye or that other people won't find it pleasing to the eye. But
pleasing to the eye does not equate with a particular style of
writing.

I was visiting Bert Heiserman's antique pen shop in Kensington,
Maryland, one Sunday afternoon several years ago and saw a friend
who'd been working on developing his skills in the Copperplate style.
He told me that he had bought a book (or two or three) and had been
practicing the letter forms. Buying a book and practicing letter forms
does not, at least to me, equate with "doing what comes naturally." He
gave me a lesson in Copperplate. As Anna pointed out in her article,
one has to hold the pen at a funny angle and involve the entire arm
and shoulder in the movements. When most people write, they move their
fingers and their wrist. In Spencerian and Copperplate writing, one
holds the fingers and wrist stationary (wrist cocked at a funny angle)
and moves the pen with the arm and shoulder. This simply didn't feel
natural to me. Now this doesn't mean that I couldn't learn how to
write that way or that I think others can't learn to write that way. I
believe that just about anyone can *learn* to write that way, but
doing so requires more than just buying a flexible-nibbed fountain
pen. It requires study and practice. Requiring study and practice
necessarily implies that whatever it is doesn't come naturally. Have
fun with your dip pens. Cheers -- B






  #16  
Old April 5th 07, 04:59 PM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
Curtis L. Russell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Namiki Falcon//More on flex

On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 14:25:38 GMT, "BL"
wrote:

As Anna pointed out in her article,
one has to hold the pen at a funny angle and involve the entire arm
and shoulder in the movements. When most people write, they move their
fingers and their wrist.


And that is how we were trained, so the other seems odd now. The story
was that Spencer designed his method to be comfortable over hours of
professional writing and was the end result of trying and testing
other ways first. In any event, it is hard to compare writing then, in
a day that the desks and sometimes chairs were designed with the idea
that you would primarily be writing when using them and now, when it
is the best height for your keyboard that controls and writing is an
afterthought. The best place I have for writing is a campaign desk
that I redid the height to make it lower. Nowhere near any computer.

I also think that the thought to paper process was different for most
in that era. We are in an era when people learn that they can
backspace through anything and redo their thought at any time. People
speak in incomplete sentences and change their thought in mid
sentence, mangling structure and agreement. That is not a great way to
think if you want a good looking finished product using an ink pen of
any sort. Unless, of course, you don't mind that it is
incomprehensible, as long as it looks good.

Yeah, I know, all that said, back then they probably wrote better at
the kitchen table than I do on my favorite paper at my favorite desk.
Emerson at his round table probably wrote with a better hand.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
  #17  
Old April 5th 07, 07:08 PM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
Aaron Hsu[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Namiki Falcon//More on flex

On 2007-04-05 09:25:38 -0500, "BL" said:

Aaron Hsu wrote:

.... If a bunch of young kids could learn to
write decently (though not perfectly) in this
form, surely some disciplined adults can benefit
from some practice along these lines.


Hi Aaron... Here's how Anna opens her piece:

"Chances are, if you've purchased a flexible-nibbed pen with the
expectation that it would make your handwriting look fantastic, you
were disappointed. Popular belief seems to be that merely using a
flexible nib ... will automatically confer beauty on your handwriting.
Unfortunately, it's not so. This is what I not-so-fondly call the
flexible-nib myth." Later she writes, "Sorry to bring the bad news,
but truly beautiful handwriting comes from disciplined practice and
the application of specific skills."

The main purpose of my post on the subject (which you quoted) was to
point out that writing in Spencerian or Copperplate script does not
come naturally from writing with a flexible-nibbed fountain pen. You
will discover this too when you buy your first flexible-nibbed
fountain pen. I'm not saying that you won't find your writing pleasing
to the eye or that other people won't find it pleasing to the eye. But
pleasing to the eye does not equate with a particular style of
writing.


Aah, see, then I probably misunderstood your point. I am in complete
agreement with you there. In fact, for modern aspiring penmen, it's
probably easier to start with something other than a flexible-nib pen,
with which they are not very family, so that they have to learn fewer
things at once. I think we are just making different points here. :-)
My point was more that Spencerian or Copperplate writing is not
inherently more difficult than the Palmer (I think that's what you call
it) or Italic methods in more prevelant use today.

I was visiting Bert Heiserman's antique pen shop in Kensington,
Maryland, one Sunday afternoon several years ago and saw a friend
who'd been working on developing his skills in the Copperplate style.
He told me that he had bought a book (or two or three) and had been
practicing the letter forms. Buying a book and practicing letter forms
does not, at least to me, equate with "doing what comes naturally." He
gave me a lesson in Copperplate. As Anna pointed out in her article,
one has to hold the pen at a funny angle and involve the entire arm
and shoulder in the movements. When most people write, they move their
fingers and their wrist. In Spencerian and Copperplate writing, one
holds the fingers and wrist stationary (wrist cocked at a funny angle)
and moves the pen with the arm and shoulder. This simply didn't feel
natural to me. Now this doesn't mean that I couldn't learn how to
write that way or that I think others can't learn to write that way. I
believe that just about anyone can *learn* to write that way, but
doing so requires more than just buying a flexible-nibbed fountain
pen. It requires study and practice. Requiring study and practice
necessarily implies that whatever it is doesn't come naturally. Have
fun with your dip pens. Cheers


:-) I am very much looking forward to finally having a pen capable of
the full Spencerian expression (instead of my monoline
pseudo-spencerian I have been doing). However, I think we should also
realize that the term Natural has a strong relative meaning. I think
one of the great tragedies of our day which has overtaken many of our
would-be scholars convinces them that writing well is nearly
impossible. They seem convinced that the authors of the past were
somehow genetically different and "born to write" rather than, say,
type at a keyboard. With anyone who shows even an inclings desire to
improve their writing, I try to impress upon them the attainability of
such a goal. The task of learning good penmanship appears much less
daunting if they realize that once style of writing is not inherently
more difficult or unnatural than another, just different.
--
Aaron Hsu

  #18  
Old May 7th 11, 01:36 PM
FotijT FotijT is offline
Banned
 
First recorded activity by CollectingBanter: May 2011
Location: Russia
Posts: 1
Send a message via ICQ to FotijT
Default

íèâêà íå ìîÿ, à ñåðï ÷óæîé.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Would a Namiki Falcon work for me? Moira Perkins Pens & Pencils 23 April 15th 07 12:55 AM
Namiki Falcon scratchy ABC Pens & Pencils 13 April 9th 07 01:10 PM
Namiki Falcon Hugh Pens & Pencils 2 November 26th 06 01:31 AM
Can you use an international cartirdge in a Namiki Falcon? Strider Pens & Pencils 3 March 21st 04 06:51 PM
Namiki Falcon nib question Steven M. Friedlander Pens & Pencils 5 November 16th 03 03:21 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CollectingBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.