Bruce Remick wrote:

"note.boy" wrote in message
...


Bruce Remick wrote:

--
"note.boy" wrote in message
...


Bruce Remick wrote:

"note.boy" wrote in message
...
I live in the UK and I have one slabbed coin in my collection, a
UK
error coin that I happened to like, so I've not dealt with slabbed
coins
very much.

I still know however that slabbing benefits only the slabbing
companies,
I would still be of this opinion if I had never bought a single
slabbed
coin.

Are you saying that tens of thousands of knowledgeable collectors
and
dealers have been hoodwinked now for years?

Yes, although I would say "less knowledgeable collectors" and not
"knowledgeable collectors". Dealers have not been hoodwinked as they
profit massively from the myth that MSwhatever slabbed coins are often
worth a fortune compared to slightly lower grade examples, the Emperor
has no clothes but no one has said so, yet.

The less knowledgeable collector can purchase the same "slab" as the
knowledgeable collector with the confidence that it will much more
attractive than a raw coin when it comes time to sell. If a dealer can
profit, so can a careful collector. As long as there are customers for
high-MS slabbed coins there will be sellers offering them. On the other
hand, the opportunities are there for those who favor raw coins to
obtain
bargains, as the better specimens are being slabbed. There's something
for
everyone.

The problem is that not all slabbed coin types with the same grade on
the label can be 100% guaranteed to be the same grade, this can be down
to the grading company's standing in the league table or the grader may
have had an off day, the less knowledgeable collector may not be aware
of this and will accept the grade on the label as gospel. Slabbing has
introduced an extra unnecessary layer of knowledge that the new
collector has to master or risk a financial penalty later when selling.

Hey, there are few guarantees in life, except for the one we all don't like
to think about. Since there is an active market for high MS grade coins
here in the US, the opinion of a reputable third party service has become
recognized as a safety net for those who want to play this game. There's
no such thing as an unnecessary layer of knowledge when it comes to the fine
points of interprreting the grades of high priced, high grade coins. Some
confide in the reputable slabbers. Others don't. Neither is wrong.

My argument is that no one should be paying silly money for allegedly
high MS graded coins whether slabbed on not, minuscule improvements in
grade is not worth paying mega bucks for. Slabbed high MS coins give
collectors a false sense of security.



Overgrading can be true of unslabbed coins but the price differential if
a slabbed coin has been overgraded is more than for an unslabbed coins.
It's foolish to pay mega bucks for a high MS coin when at the end of the
day it's just an opinion and the difference in the coin's appearance is
minimal.

I avoid using the word "raw" as I think that term is derogatory towards
unslabbed coins.

In your mind, maybe. To most others it's simply a commonly used term. Are
you really concerned about the feelings of your coins?

I bet that the term "raw" was invented by a dealer and not a collector
to make unslabbed coins seem less desirable than slabbed ones.





You say you don't deal with
slabs, yet you claim to "know" the inside information about who
benefits
from slabbing in the US? I suspect many here in the US would differ
with
you-- from first hand experience.

List the benefits for collectors buying slabbed coins versus unslabbed
ones, it shouldn't take long.

The benefits I see are confidence in authentification, stable value and
demand in the marketplace, and generally a better quality coin than most
raw
ones offered. More and more of the better raw examples are disappearing
from the marketplace and are being placed in slabs. I don't trust my
ability to always tell if a raw coin may have been cleaned and perhaps
refused by a grading company. I won't buy an attractive slabbed coin
at a
price I feel has been inflated to include the slabbing cost. With the
exception of a one-time special offer, I don't send coins off to be
graded
and slabbed. I prefer slabbed coins for my type set and raw coins for
my
series collections. Just my preference.

Authentication can be assured if unslabbed coins are bought from a long
time dealer with a high reputation, slabbing is not necessary. Only USA
based collectors think that slabbing is often essential, elsewhere it's
not necessary and the various MS grades mean nothing outside the USA.

When you want to sell your unslabbed coin to me, your claim of having bought
it from a long time dealer means nothing to me, regardless of who the dealer
might be. Prove it. Since you feel the various MS grades mean nothing
outside the US, what's your problem then? Sure, some US collectors think
that slabbing is often essential. Our slabbed MS coins shouldn't bother you
in the UK. Unless you have seen a growing demand for "our" slabbed coins
over there.

I have all receipts for the coins that I have bought from major dealers,
is that enough proof for you?

If not then you will understand how MS graded UK coins mean nothing to
UK collectors.

The problem is that USA collectors have been brainwashed into paying
silly money for alleged high grade MS coins, grades that don't exist
outside the USA. There are equivalents of UK grades in europe but USA
grading is unique, why it that?



Why trust a grading company, who do not buy and sell coins (usually),
over a long established dealer who does so every day?

Would you rather trust a grading service that *does* buy and sell coins?
There are some large, long-established dealers here in the US, and probably
in the UK as well, who do not enjoy a good reputation among knowledgeable
collectors. They often rely on novice collectors who will buy their "raw"
coins and not question them.

Of course I would not trust a grading company that sells its own graded
coins, only a fool would do that.




You are wise not to restrict yourself to slabbed coins only.





There is endless debate over the ranking of the grading companies
and
a
lot of cracking out goes on trying to get a higher grade, there is
also
discussion as to how the grading "standards" have changed over the
years.
So as I said above, slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies.

Among those who collect and deal with third-party-slabbed coins,
there
is
little debate over ranking of the companies.

The fact that there IS a ranking for the grading companies only proves
that the slabbing of coins IS a joke.

I don't get your reasoning. In the US there are rankings for doctors,
lawyers, mid-size autos, you name it. Does this make the medical
profession a joke?

Apples and oranges, but have you heard of Doctor Harold Shipman?, a UK
doctor, now deceased?



I think you'll find consumer rankings for many products and services
where
different brands or companies are are involved. Why should slabbing
services be any different? Where there is competition, the cream will
rise
to the top, as it usually does.

If there are rankings for the grading companies due to differences in
grading standards then what is the point of slabbing coins? As there is
no universally recognised grading standard for slabbing coins the whole
process is worthless.

There are rankings for grading companies based on their perceived adherance
to the most widely accepted standards of grading here in the US. The fact
is that some are considered much more consistent in their interpretations
than others. These companies have the highest regard among collectors.
Coins slabbed by lesser-rated companies will typically sell for less than
the others. If this bothers you, there are many other collecting options
and you should maybe avoid US coins altogether. The rest of us seem able to
live with things as they are.

Again, if there are different rankings for grading companies what the
point of have coins slabbed? Collectors then have to know which place
in the rankings a grading company has before being able to make an
informed buying decision, new collectors may not be aware of this, the
very people that slabbing is claimed to protect.









A UK dealer is currently attempting to sell slabbed coins here in
the
UK, I hope it is a miserable failure and that they loose a lot of
money
as this will deter others from trying to do the same.

Why should you care, as long as you will still have a choice between
raw
and
slabbed coins?

I don't want the less knowledgeable here in the UK to be suckered in
to
paying silly money for slabbed coins as has happened in the USA. The
"investment" word appears on their home page, this should be a big red
flag.

Your presumption here is that they are being "suckered". Over the long
run,
I would say the slabbed high grade coin would generally be a better
investment than a comparable raw one. The less informed person often
would
be better served buying a professionally graded coin if he is determined
to
buy coins at all. Silly money can just as often be paid for overgraded
or
problem raw coins.

They are been suckered, the attempt may fail, as the market for slabbed
UK coins in the UK is virtually non existent. A coin bought from a long
time UK dealer with a high reputation HAS been professionally graded.

Again, your concern is curious since you say slabbed coins in the UK are
virtually nonexistant. Your coin bought from a long time UK dealer with a
high reputation versus my coin slabbed by a top-rated grading service. At
least I can prove what I have. You are asking me to believe that your claim
should guarantee something to me. Does every UK dealer grade identically?
Is every UK dealer who sells coins for a living a professional grader?

No, of course not every UK dealer grades identically, but in the UK a
tiny difference in MS grade does not have a dramatic effect on the value
of a coin because we have no MS grading system. You seem to be
suggesting that the only "professional graders" are those that work for
the USA grading companies, are you? A UK dealer who consistently
overgraded his coins would not be around for long.






http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/

They want £750 for this coin, crown 1898 LXII (on edge) MS64




http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms64.htm

They want £500 for this one in MS63




http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms63.htm

Can anyone explain the difference in the appearance that makes one
worth
£750 and the other £500?

And once that has been explained explain why anyone should buy
either
when a coin with an identical catalogue value, crown 1899 LXII, is
on
offer from Spink in "a few minor surface marks, very attractively
toned
with underlying brilliance, as struck" condition for £375?

If someone buys the £750 coin, why not ask him?


I'm asking you, why should they? £375 is a lot to pay for a bit of
plastic, it doubles the cost of the coin for zero benefit.

Who's to say why people do things? Perhaps there's something about that
expensive coin that you missed. If a knowledgeable UK collector buys it,
you probably did miss something.

Some people pay a lot of money for a coin with "purty colours", why?
The £750 coin is nothing special, the buyer would be paying £375 for a
bit of plastic, I doubt if it will find a UK buyer, if at all.



Pretend that you have £750 to spend on coins and that you fancy a
Victorian crown like the ones I listed, would you blow it on the
slabbed
coin at £750 or buy the Spink one at £375 and still have £375 left to
spend on other coins?

If I thought the price was way out of line, just because of the holder,
I
might pass, assuming both coins were otherwise identical. If I saw that
all
similar Victorian crowns in a particular company's slab were routinely
traded at this higher price, I might ponder it. If I had been
collecting
raw crowns, I would likely continue to purchase only raw crowns.
Purchasing
expensive slabbed coins should not be an impulse thing. I would have to
justify to myself that such a purchase would be right for me as a
collector.

The prices ARE way out of line just because of the holder. The slabbed
coins will not be routinely traded at a higher price as I'm fairly sure
that UK collectors will not be taken in, but time will tell.

UK collectors make decisions the same as collectors everywhere else. If
they all feel the way you do, the UK will be safe from the US slabber virus
for awhile at least.

I think that the majority do and I hope that we will. No UK collector
has yet made made a post in support of slabbing UK coins. Two I think
have cancelled their subscription the the dealer's auction catalogues, I
have bought from them in the past but never again.





I trust Spink's grading more than some slabbing company's as Spink
have
been doing it for 339 years and I have not noticed any reduction in
their grading standards over the past 27 or so years. How do I know
this, by comparing the coin pics in old and new editions of their
Numismatic Circular. Billy

You have your standards and you can be satisfied by sticking to them.
Others may feel more comfortable considering a professionally graded
coin.
Whether you personally like slabs or not should not affect how you
choose to
collect.

Again an unslabbed coin bought from a long time dealer with a high
reputation HAS been professionally graded.
Why are you of the opinion that only a slabbed coin has been
"professionally graded"? I think that you have been brainwashed by the
grading companies hype. When I snap my fingers you will come out of it,
"snap", did it work? Billy

Again, what constitutes a professional? Anyone who sells coins for a
living? If you faithfully believe every UK coin shoppe owner's grading,
it's you who may be vulnerable to get "suckered in". The reputable
professional graders in the US have no financial stake in the coin they're
grading and slabbing. Your UK dealer grades his coin and then sells it.
Unbiased? This situation isn't unique to the UK. We have the same
situation here. That's why some collectors here prefer independently-graded
and slabbed coins. And others don't. No big deal. No need for you to
feel threatened by our slabbers, unless you are having second thoughts about
how a potential buyer might grade that crown you bought twenty years ago
from a UK "professional grader". If not, you're safe. Go on collecting.

Bruce

I have no idea what constitutes a professional grader, as far as I know
there are none in the UK.

Going by the UK coins on ebay most of my coins are at least "EF". :-)
Billy